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| FYROM: Leave Greek heroes rest in peace. |
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| POSTED Wednesday, August 04, 2004 08:19:54 PM |
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To those who are unsure about this Macedonian issue, please refrain from obtaining your knowledge from the internet. you can find thousands of books on this topic, or you can visit the northern region of modern Greece today, it is called Makedonia. Go to the many Museums and see what remains of the Macedonians. You will see Greek words carved in stone 2500 years ago, you will see statues of the Greek gods, Greek art that surpasses even that in Athens. Many of these ancient Macedonian artifacts are pre-Alexander. Mt.Olympus was a part of ancient Macedonia and ancient Macedonia has played an important role in the history of ancient greece, and modern greece. There is no proof what so ever, that can show any relation of the Ancient Macedonians to the people of FYROM. Some cunning political propagandists have twisted some quotes here and there to forge a so-called "history". but you can not change that which has been set in stone. do some re-search, visit greek macedonia. see with your own eyes!
NOTE: The newly formed country above greece called Macedonia (The Former Yugoslav Republic Of), was recognised in 1996. Greece is a strong supporter of this country, helping it economically and strategically. its only friendly dispute has been over the use of a greek name, Macedonia and all the associations to that name (symbols-History). If FYROM dropped that name, they would make the greeks very happy, not just in greece, but around the world. there would be a more peaceful co-existance with those people who insist on calling themselves Macedonians by ethnos, when infact they are decendants of Slavs, Bulgarians, Albanians, turks, Vlachs and extreme leftist Greeks. think of the island New-Caledonia, you dont see the Greeks getting upset at the use of the word Caledonia, also a place in ancient Greece. The New-Caledonians dont use any Greek symbols, They dont claim the heroes of Ancient Caledonia as their own. Future Generations, not biased by the mis-infomation created by Tito, Gligorov and his henchmen will see the truth, and one day the issue will be resolved.
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| REPLIED Sunday , November 28, 2004 07:57:42 PM |
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| REPLIED Sunday , November 28, 2004 07:58:44 PM |
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ilija the great
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fairfield,NJ
POSTS: 3
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REPLIED Sunday , November 28, 2004 07:45:44 PM
AGC....quit spreading propaganda. Macedonians were not Greek, they were Macedonian. The language spoken at the time, by the aristocrats and intellectuals was Greek, so that is how soe Macedonians spoke Greek. Secondly Aegean Macedonia, which you refer to as Northern Greece, belonged to Macedonia for over 2000 years. Greece only had it for about 70 years (since WWI). Just because us Macedonians are half slav, does not change the fact that we are also half Macedonian (ancient Macedonian, of no relation to Greeks). Many Greek historians reeatedly said that the Macedonians were "barbarians", often discribing people who were not Greek, and who did not use the Greek language (except for the aristocrats). On top of that, the Macedonians were not allowed to participate in the Olympics, while the other Greek States, such as the Spartans were. Don't make some bullshit up about Macedonia being to mountainous, so it would be hard for them to get to the Olympics. Lastly, look at the facts. Genetic research has been done in Spain (click on the following lnks to see the results http://www.historyofmaced
onia.org/ConciseMacedonia
/AncientGenes.html) These results show that present day Macedonians and Greeks have different genes then each other. The Macedonians have certain genes, that are not present in either Greeks or slavs, like serbians and russians.
Once more I say, LOOK AT THE FACTS. Look at us Macedonians. We generally do not look like other slavs (serbians and russians). We are short, usually have dark hair. While, the slavs are characteristically a tall race, usual with a blondish hair color. And we certainly do not look like the Greeks. Short, hairy, dark, and dare I say, ugly people.
If you want the real facts....check this site out http://www.historyofmaced
onia.org/
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ilija the great
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fairfield,NJ
POSTS: 3
MEMBER SINCE: 2004-11-28 READ MY PROFILE
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REPLIED Sunday , November 28, 2004 07:48:39 PM
WHY THE MACEDONIANS HAVE NEVER BEEN GREEK http://www.historyofmaced
onia.org/ConciseMacedonia
/MacedoniansNotGreeks.htm
l
WHY THE MACEDONIANS ARE NOT SLAVS (ACTUALLY HALF SLAVS) http://www.historyofmaced
onia.org/ConciseMacedonia
/MacedoniansNotSlavs.html
GENETIC RESARCH 1 http://www.historyofmaced
onia.org/ConciseMacedonia
/AncientGenes.html
GENETIC RESARCH 2 http://www.historyofmaced
onia.org/ConciseMacedonia
/Y-chromosomes.html
THE DESCENDANTS OF ALEXANDER THE GREAT (THE TRUE MACEDONIANS) http://www.historyofmaced
onia.org/ConciseMacedonia
/donski.html
Edit Reply w/Quote
ilija the great
Member
fairfield,NJ
POSTS: 3
MEMBER SINCE: 2004-11-28 READ MY PROFILE
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VOTE FOR ME
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REPLIED Sunday , November 28, 2004 07:53:55 PM
AGC, please show me atleast one book or website, written non-biasly, by a non-greek or non-american saying that Macedonians are Greek (with concrete evidence), such as the genetic resarch done in Spain. I know you can't, because it is all propaganda. I hate to say it, but you Greeks are worse then the Albanians, and I can officially say, there is not one Greek in the world that I like. (I don't like people who don't recognize me, or that don't even acknowledge that I exist
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Edit Reply w/Quote
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| REPLIED Sunday , November 28, 2004 08:02:41 PM |
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ilija the great
Member
fairfield,NJ
POSTS: 3
MEMBER SINCE: 2004-11-28 READ MY PROFILE
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VOTE FOR ME
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REPLIED Sunday , November 28, 2004 07:45:44 PM
AGC....quit spreading propaganda. Macedonians were not Greek, they were Macedonian. The language spoken at the time, by the aristocrats and intellectuals was Greek, so that is how soe Macedonians spoke Greek. Secondly Aegean Macedonia, which you refer to as Northern Greece, belonged to Macedonia for over 2000 years. Greece only had it for about 70 years (since WWI). Just because us Macedonians are half slav, does not change the fact that we are also half Macedonian (ancient Macedonian, of no relation to Greeks). Many Greek historians reeatedly said that the Macedonians were "barbarians", often discribing people who were not Greek, and who did not use the Greek language (except for the aristocrats). On top of that, the Macedonians were not allowed to participate in the Olympics, while the other Greek States, such as the Spartans were. Don't make some bullshit up about Macedonia being to mountainous, so it would be hard for them to get to the Olympics. Lastly, look at the facts. Genetic research has been done in Spain (click on the following lnks to see the results http://www.historyofmaced
onia.org/ConciseMacedonia
/AncientGenes.html) These results show that present day Macedonians and Greeks have different genes then each other. The Macedonians have certain genes, that are not present in either Greeks or slavs, like serbians and russians.
Once more I say, LOOK AT THE FACTS. Look at us Macedonians. We generally do not look like other slavs (serbians and russians). We are short, usually have dark hair. While, the slavs are characteristically a tall race, usual with a blondish hair color. And we certainly do not look like the Greeks. Short, hairy, dark, and dare I say, ugly people.
If you want the real facts....check this site out http://www.historyofmaced
onia.org/
Edit Reply w/Quote
ilija the great
Member
fairfield,NJ
POSTS: 3
MEMBER SINCE: 2004-11-28 READ MY PROFILE
ADD TO FRIENDS
VOTE FOR ME
E-MAIL ME
REPLIED Sunday , November 28, 2004 07:48:39 PM
WHY THE MACEDONIANS HAVE NEVER BEEN GREEK http://www.historyofmaced
onia.org/ConciseMacedonia
/MacedoniansNotGreeks.htm
l
WHY THE MACEDONIANS ARE NOT SLAVS (ACTUALLY HALF SLAVS) http://www.historyofmaced
onia.org/ConciseMacedonia
/MacedoniansNotSlavs.html
GENETIC RESARCH 1 http://www.historyofmaced
onia.org/ConciseMacedonia
/AncientGenes.html
GENETIC RESARCH 2 http://www.historyofmaced
onia.org/ConciseMacedonia
/Y-chromosomes.html
THE DESCENDANTS OF ALEXANDER THE GREAT (THE TRUE MACEDONIANS) http://www.historyofmaced
onia.org/ConciseMacedonia
/donski.html
Edit Reply w/Quote
ilija the great
Member
fairfield,NJ
POSTS: 3
MEMBER SINCE: 2004-11-28 READ MY PROFILE
ADD TO FRIENDS
VOTE FOR ME
E-MAIL ME
REPLIED Sunday , November 28, 2004 07:53:55 PM
AGC, please show me atleast one book or website, written non-biasly, by a non-greek or non-american saying that Macedonians are Greek (with concrete evidence), such as the genetic resarch done in Spain. I know you can't, because it is all propaganda. I hate to say it, but you Greeks are worse then the Albanians, and I can officially say, there is not one Greek in the world that I like. (I don't like people who don't recognize me, or that don't even acknowledge that I exist
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| REPLIED Sunday , November 28, 2004 08:07:08 PM |
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Quotes from the ancient and modern historians
"The fight was further embittered by the old racial rivalry of Greek and Macedonian" - Arrian
"When oaths to this effect had been sworn and the Greeks were interspersed among the Macedonians, Pithon was greatly pleased, seeing that the affair was progressing according to his intentions; but the Macedonians remembering the orders of Perdiccas and having no regard for the oaths that had been sworn, broke faith with the Greeks. Setting upon them unexpectedly and catching them off their ground, they shot them all down with javelins and seized their possessions as plunder. Pithon then, cheated of his hopes, came back with the Macedonians to Perdiccas" - Diodorus 18.7.8-9
"The Macedonian army, which will have the exclusive status, was to be supported by the Greek army and by the armies of the adjacent conquered nations" - Justin 9.5.5-8.
"Antipater was appointed governor of Macedonia and Greece" - Justin 13.4.5
"His Majesty Alexander to Darius: Greetings. The Darius whose name you have assumed wrought utter destruction upon the Greek inhabitants of the Hellespontine coast and upon the Greek colonies of Ionia, and then crossed the sea with a mighty army, bringing the war to Macedonia and Greece" - Curtius
"Neither Greeks nor Macedonians considered the Macedonians to be Greeks." Borza
"The conclusion is inescapable: there was a largely ethnic Macedonian imperial administration from beginning to end. Alexander used Greeks in court for cultural reasons, Greek troops (often under Macedonian commanders) for limited tasks and with some discomfort, and Greek commanders and officals for limited duties. Typically, a Greek will enter Alexander's service from an Aegean or Asian city through the practice of some special activity: he could read and write, keep figures or sail, all of which skills the Macedonians required. Some Greeks may have moved on to military service as well. In other words, the role of Greeks in Alexander's service was not much different from what their role had been in the services of Xerxes and the third Darius." Borza
"If one wishes to believe that Alexander had a policy of hellenization - as opposed to the incidental and informal spread of Greek culture - the evidence must come from sources other than those presented here. One wonders - archeology aside - where this evidence would be." Borza
On the ethnic tension between Macedonians and Greeks, referring to the episode of Eumenes of Cardia and his bid to reach the throne: "And if there were any doubt about the status of Greeks among the Macedonians the tragic career of Eumenes in the immediate Wars of succession should put it to rest. The ancient sources are replete with information about the ethnic prejudice Eumenes suffered from Macedonians."
Borza
"The tension at court between Greeks and Macedonians, tension that the ancient authors clearly recognized as ethnic division." Borza
"The main evidence for Macedonian existing as separate language comes from a handful of late sources describing events in the train of Alexander the Great, where the Macedonian tongue is mentioned specifically." Borza
"Greeks and Macedonians remained steadfastly antipathetic toward one another (with dislike of a different quality than the mutual long-term hostility shared by some Greek city-states) until well into the Hellenic period, when both the culmination of hellenic acculturation in the north and the rise of Rome made it clear that what these peoples shared took precedence over their historical enmities." Borza
"They made their mark not as a tribe of Greek or other Balkan peoples, but as 'Macedonians'. This was understood by foreign protagonists from the time of Darius and Xerxes to the age of Roman generals." Borza
"What did others say about Macedonians? Here there is a relative abundance of information", writes Borza, "from Arrian, Plutarch (Alexander, Eumenes), Diodorus 17-20, Justin, Curtius Rufus, and Nepos (Eumenes), based upon Greek and Greek-derived Latin sources. It is clear that over a five-century span of writing in two languages representing a variety of historiographical and philosophical positions the ancient writers regarded the Greeks and the Macedonians as two separate and distinct peoples whose relationship was marked by considerable antipathy, if not outright hostility." Borza
"The suggestion is surely that Macedonian was the language of the infantry and that the Greek was a difficult indeed a foreign tongue to them". Badian
"Alexander never tried to impose Greek on his Macedonian infantry, or to integrate it with Greek 'foreign' individuals". Badian
"Philip had not tried to pass of his Macedonians as Greeks" Badian
"The Colonels, as it happened, promoted Alexander as a great Greek hero, especially to army recruits: the Greeks of the fourth century B.C., to whom Alexander was a half-Macedonian, half-Epirote barbarian conqueror, would have found this metamorphosis as ironic as I did." Green
"Macedonia was the first large territorial state with an effective centralized political, military and administrative structure to come into being on the continent of Europe". Green
"And though Philip did not give a fig for Panhellenism as an idea, he at once saw how it could be turned into highly effective camouflage ( a notion which his son subsequently took over ready-made). Isocrates had, unwittingly, supplied him with the propaganda-line he needed. From now on he merely had to clothe his Macedonian ambitions in a suitable Panhellenic dress." Green
"The Greek states retained no more than a pale shadow of their former freedom". Green
"The Greek states were to make a common peace and alliance with one another, and constitute themselves into a federal Hellenic League. Simultaneously, the league was to form a separate alliance with Macedonia, though Macedonia itself would not be a league member." Green
"Philips Panhellenism was no more than a convenient placebo to keep his allies quiet, a cloak for further Macedonian aggrandizement." Green
"Most Greek statesmen recognized this only too well. To them, their self-styled hegemon was still a semi-barbarian autocrat, whose wishes had been imposed on them by right of conquest; and when Alexander succeeded Philip, he inherited the same bitter legacy of hatred and resentment - which his own policies did little to dispel." Green
"In the early spring of 336, an advance force of 10,000 men, including a thousand cavalry, crossed over to Asia Minor. Its task was to secure the Hellespont, to stockpile supplies, and in Philips pleasantly cynical phrase, to liberate the Greek cities." Green
"This was the Panhellenic crusade preached by Isocrates, and as such the kings propaganda section continued - for the time being - to present it. No one, so far as we know, was tactless enough to ask the obvious question: if this was a Panhellenic crusade, where were the Greek troops?" Green
"The truth of the matter seems to have been that Alexander distrusted his Greek allies so profoundly - and with good reason - that he preferred to risk the collapse of his campaign in a spate of rebellion rather than entrust its safety to a Greek fleet." Green
"But then, Eumenes was a Greek, and Macedonian troops, especially the old sweats who had served under Philip II, were never really comfortable being led by non-Macedonians." Green
"I deliberately refrain from adopting any position on the linguistic status of ancient Macedonian. It has little significance outside the nationalistic propaganda of the contemporary Balkan states, in which prejudice and dogma do duty for rational thought. What matters for the present argument is the fact, explicit in Curtius, that Macedonian was largely unintelligible to non-Macedonians. Macedonians might understand Greek, and some Greek (like Eumenes) with experience of Macedon might speak Macedonian. However, even Eumenes took care that a vital message was conveyed to the phalangites of Neoptolemus by a man fluent in Macedonian (MAKEDONI/ZONTA TH]=FWNH]=:PSI 12. 1284,col. ii. 19-20).] "Alexander shouted out in Macedonian, and called the hypaspists in Macedonian." In my view there is nothing at all surprising in the use of Macedonian. Alexander was calling his hypaspists, who were Macedonians, and he addressed them in their native language/dialect." Bosworth
"The Macedonians themselves were not Hellenes; they belonged to the barbaric races, not greatly differing from the Greeks in ethnic type, but far behind them in civilization, which bordered Hellas upon the north. They were a distinct race, not Paeonian, not Illyrian, not Thracian; but, of the three, their connection was closest with the Illyrians." Rawlinson
"It is thus not surprising that the Macedonians considered themselves to be, and were treated by Alexander the Great as being, separate from the Greeks. They were proud to be so." Hammond
"He knew from experience that in the eyes of the Macedonians he was still a Greek, a foreigner. Plutarch praised his charming and refined manners, which were very unlike the haughty airs of the noble Macedonian officer." Jouguet
"The dislike was reciprocal, for the Macedonians have grown into a proud masterful nation, which with highly developed national consciousness looked down upon the Hellenes with contempt. This fact too is of prime importance for the understanding of later history." Wilcken
"Philip II of Macedonia (359-336), who made his country into a major power, virtually controlling the mainland Greek city-states, intended to lead his and their forces against the two-centuries-old Persian (Achaemenid) empire, which ruled over huge territories extending from the Aegean to Egypt and central Asia. Philip's motives were mixed: revenge for the Persian invasion of Macedonia and Greece in the previous century, annoyance because the contemporary Persians had at times aided the king's own Greek opponents, a desire to wipe out the only large-scale potential enemy to the Macedonians that was still in existence - and pure lust for expansion." Grant
"In 334 BC, at the head of 40,000 Macedonian and Greek troops, he (Alexander) crossed the Hellespont (Dardanelles) and confronted the Persian advanced forces on the river Granicus (Can Cayi), winning a victory which enabled him to conquer western and southern Asia Minor." Grant
"Reading the lesson of his times, and making the proved inferiority of citizen militia to standing forces, and of the capricious rule of the many to an imperial system under a single head, he evolved the first European Power in the modern sense of the word-- an armed nation with a common national ideal. This, his own conception, he understood clearly and perused consistently through twenty-three years. Surely such a man may be called great for what he was." Hogarth
"Isocrates had long been urging the Greeks to combine in a war of conquest against Persia, and had latterly incited Philip to lead the enterprise. But Isocrates evinced little concern for the ' enslavement ' of the Asian Greeks or desire to revenge the atrocities of the Persians in 480-479.62 In his conception a Panhellenic crusade would promote peace at home and provide the Greeks with new lands on which to settle their surplus population; Philip was to be content with the glory of benefiting the Greeks by victories over the barbarians.63 If we can believe the ' vulgate ', Callisthenes may well have shared this na1ve idea, for we are told that he reminded Alexander of his original purpose, to annex ' Asia' to Greece (iv 11, 7). It is quite unlikely that either Philip or Alexander ever entertained such a purpose. They could allege Macedonian casus belli: in the fifth century the Persians had invaded Macedon as well as Greece, and in 340 they had helped Perinthus to repel Philip's attack; Alexander even had the impudence to add that Darius had been guilty of hostile acts against him-after Philip had already invaded Asia (ii 14, 4 f.). But all these were surely pretexts. Conquest must have been the real purpose." Brunt
"Macedonian and Greek were mutually unintelligible in the court of Alexander the Great" R.A.Crossland
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