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| Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring |
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| Religion (Intelligent ones only please)
[1] 2 3 4 |
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| POSTED Monday , December 31, 2001 11:58:53 PM |
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Just want to see what some of you guys think about it... whether you're religious or not, how you feel about it, if you're Christian which denomination... also would like to hear your views on fundamentalism...
I want to point out now that this is NOT to turn into a slagging match, and if it does, I will request that the moderators close the thread. (Although I don't think that will be necessary, you people seem pretty on the ball...)
It's become rather a large issue for me, given that I have some Christian (and Fundamentalist Christian) friends... just want to know some of your thoughts, cause by and large you all seem to be a bunch of reasonable people...
No stupid comments please.
We returned to our places, these Kingdoms,
But no longer at ease here, in the old dispensation,
With an alien people clutching their gods.
I should be glad of another death.
-T.S. Eliot. |
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| REPLIED Tuesday, January 01, 2002 12:01:38 AM |
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| REPLIED Tuesday, January 01, 2002 06:42:13 AM |
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| REPLIED Tuesday, January 01, 2002 07:33:56 AM |
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| REPLIED Tuesday, January 01, 2002 07:38:19 AM |
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| REPLIED Tuesday, January 01, 2002 07:48:23 AM |
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I'm a UU (Unitarian Universalist) and feel that one's faith is a deeply personal thing between them and their God or gods. My big problem is with organized religions that want to force their beliefs on people, IE: fundamentalists. I think the more you make dogma, the more you codify a religion, the farther you get from God or the original message. Politics of an ecumenical nature always creep in and corrupt things. What it boils down to is that I don't see the need for an intermediary between me and God.
FYI, UU's span a wide system of beliefs, there are pagans, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Wiccans, shamanists, agnostics, and atheists in the church. Makes for some very interesting discussions! But we are united in our quest for understanding existence and doing good.
"It wasn't great when I started, George Lucas started, all of us started. I really thought we were going to leave the motion picture industry or field better than we found it, and we left it worse."
-- Francis Ford Coppola
A little nonsense now and then,
Is valued by the wisest men.
-- Willy Wonka
Voice of Reason and Ship's Psychiatrist of the Institution
Relentlessly Persuing the Happy Medium |
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| REPLIED Tuesday, January 01, 2002 08:02:34 AM |
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I believe in God, and I think that should be good enough.
Lucifer also believes in God.
Also, the Dogma of which you speak, I believe is to Carry your cross. Just read the book of James, it speaks of Faith and Works, and Faith without Works is dead. That sort of thing. I also was raised Catholic, and I've been in the same boat that you are in. The best thing to do, in your case, is to really research it. Look at the lives of some of the Saints, look for books like "Why Catholicism" and some books by Scott Hahn, a former Protestant Minister turned Catholic. I am sure you'll find your answers, and if possible, set up a meeting with a priest to talk about your misgivings, maybe to get a fresh perspective on things. It helped me. Another thing that helped me was joining a solid youth ministry program. I learned not only what this faith means, but also the whys.
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"His will was set, and only death would break it." -J.R.R. Tolkien about Samwise Gamgee |
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| REPLIED Tuesday, January 01, 2002 08:03:51 AM |
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I'm a UU (Unitarian Universalist) and feel that one's faith is a deeply personal thing between them and their God or gods. My big problem is with organized religions that want to force their beliefs on people, IE: fundamentalists. I think the more you make dogma, the more you codify a religion, the farther you get from God or the original message. Politics of an ecumenical nature always creep in and corrupt things. What it boils down to is that I don't see the need for an intermediary between me and God.
FYI, UU's span a wide system of beliefs, there are pagans, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Wiccans, shamanists, agnostics, and atheists in the church. Makes for some very interesting discussions! But we are united in our quest for understanding existence and doing good.
UU's pretty cool, I used to go to one off and on when I lived in C'Ville VA.
"...for saints have hands that pilgrims' hands do touch, and palm to palm is holy palmers' kiss...."
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| REPLIED Tuesday, January 01, 2002 08:10:45 AM |
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| REPLIED Tuesday, January 01, 2002 06:47:07 PM |
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| REPLIED Wednesday, January 02, 2002 03:16:48 AM |
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Blipvert - sounds interesting. I fully agree with your philosophies regarding intermediaries. People live and act differently - a set of organized codes doesn't work for everyone.
I personally am working through my own little religion, and as far as I'm aware it's different to all the others. I will attempt to explain, but as it's not fully worked out in my head yet, it may not make total sense. Just ask, and I shall attempt to clarify.
I'm not Christian. I have many Christian friends, but am not one myself. I have tried that road, and have found that in attempting to do so, I've run up against a wall. I do not like it personally, something about it feels wrong to me. It has too much of a human feel to it.
I believe there is a higher power, but that it's faceless, consciousnessless. (If that's a word - I mean not aware. Think of the Force from Star Wars... something akin to that. This part is similar to Zen Buddhism.)
I also believe that human beings are much tougher, much deeper and much more powerful than we give ourselves credit for. Such things as overwhelming impossible odds, sudden bursts of strength etc etc... many attribute these to God directly intervening on their behalf. However, I don't think that's quite right... I believe that these attributes (also related to luck etc) are already buried deep within us (hahaha, now that I think about it, kinda like courage within Hobbits) and some can extract them more easily than others.
However I feel that we are alone. If we run into trouble on earth, I don't feel that anyone will intervene on our behalf.
I don't believe in heaven or hell - to my way of thinking, if God was truly compassionate and understanding, he would understand the choices made and forgive us for them. I don't see it as compassionate to send people to hell for being part of a different religion or whatever. And the Christians out there... please don't reply to the last paragraph, I've been over it in depth with my mates, I'm just explaining my views on it.
I also have not yet given thought to fate or after death.
For the rest, however... if you see any flaws in my logic, or have any opinions that I could add to my thinking... please, go right ahead
We returned to our places, these Kingdoms,
But no longer at ease here, in the old dispensation,
With an alien people clutching their gods.
I should be glad of another death.
-T.S. Eliot. |
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| REPLIED Wednesday, January 02, 2002 10:45:00 AM |
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| REPLIED Wednesday, January 02, 2002 05:53:13 PM |
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I was brought up a Christian and I've always felt the people who taught me and the people I sat next to at Church were wrong and I sometimes felt like hitting them because either they were teaching blatant lies or living a lie. I always feel either really very numb or angry when I go to church! For me personally, I can't decide about religion because I know now that I want God to exist, but I don't really know if he does. It's sad how some humans act but overall, don't you think people are wonderful? I really can't make myself believe that we all came from bacteria or whatever science is saying, but a little part of me says sure we could've.
All the beauty in the world tells me there is a God, the repetition and uselessness of it all tells me he was made up. I don't really want to believe any religion we have right now is the right one, because I personally believe they were made up by very desperate men, not God, or Buddha, or whoever. Rufus (Chris Rock) in Dogma has a line in which he says that it is good to have ideas, and nothing more. I suppose that is the smartest thing I've heard in a movie so far about religion. However different or radical our views are, I do believe we should talk about it. You shouldn't stress over it by yourself!
Some last things: The Bible... I don't know, there are some wonderful things in it, but I really don't know if I can believe in it so much.
I really hope there is a heaven, but like someone before me has said, I really don't want to and cannot believe that God would send some people to hell. In the end, everyone has tried their best haven't they?
One thing that really gets me is how many people are brought up Christian and then break away from it. That tells you something, doesn't it?
"A great impression of simplicity can only be achieved by great agony of body and spirit."
--The Red Shoes |
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| REPLIED Wednesday, January 02, 2002 10:14:44 PM |
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| REPLIED Thursday, January 03, 2002 01:20:55 AM |
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| REPLIED Thursday, January 03, 2002 02:46:34 AM |
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| REPLIED Thursday, January 03, 2002 09:29:42 AM |
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That's the point though... people do in a sense send themselves to hell, and I can at least see the logic for sending rapists there... but not Muslims or Buddhists (who go to hell simply for not being Christian)... it's not right
The bible can be interpreted in many ways. My interpretations have left many of my Christian mates telling me that I'm wrong. Oh well. My interpretation.
That's why the Catholic Church is set up the way it is. The U.S. Government is there to translate the Constitution so that the American people know what it means and many people don't have their own interpretations of it. The Roman Catholic Church is set up so that the Bible has a single, coherent, interpretation, and you can walk into any Catholic Church, and they'll all teach the same thing, as opposed to any Baptist Church, or Christian church, where it is up to the minister, making for thousands of interpretations. It started with one Church from the time of Christ that lasted 1500 years and is still around today, but since 1517, 35,000 more have sprung up.
The Roman Catholic Church does not say that Buddhists are going to hell, they say that it is based on your knowledge of the Truth. It's also up to God, not man, to judge someone. I've lost my train of thought, sorry.
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"His will was set, and only death would break it." -J.R.R. Tolkien about Samwise Gamgee |
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| REPLIED Thursday, January 03, 2002 10:14:06 AM |
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| REPLIED Thursday, January 03, 2002 01:41:35 PM |
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I believe in God, and I think that should be good enough.
Lucifer also believes in God.
Also, the Dogma of which you speak, I believe is to Carry your cross. Just read the book of James, it speaks of Faith and Works, and Faith without Works is dead. That sort of thing. I also was raised Catholic, and I've been in the same boat that you are in. The best thing to do, in your case, is to really research it. Look at the lives of some of the Saints, look for books like "Why Catholicism" and some books by Scott Hahn, a former Protestant Minister turned Catholic. I am sure you'll find your answers, and if possible, set up a meeting with a priest to talk about your misgivings, maybe to get a fresh perspective on things. It helped me. Another thing that helped me was joining a solid youth ministry program. I learned not only what this faith means, but also the whys.
I was actually talking about Dogma the movie . I have been to Church a few times in the past couple of months, and I don't really get into the message of the service. I don't think I am Catholic. I have done research on a few saints, and I don't really know any priests well enough to go and talk to them openly. I take Religion class at school (go to a Catholic school) and have studied parts of the religion, I still don't really believe parts of it. I was actually thinking about going to visit a synagouge and see what that is like. I just believe in God, and like I said before, that should be good enough for everyone.
I try but you see, it's Hard to Explain
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| REPLIED Thursday, January 03, 2002 02:18:12 PM |
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Okay, God does NOT send people to hell, people send themselves. He has shown us the right path, and it's not the easiest path and many people and things will get in the way, but the rewards are greater for it. And why do people break away? They don't learn enough.
If you are familiar with any Christian teachings, then you must know that God is considered to be the final judge in the fate of men when they die. So who sends men to hell? Maybe I wasn't clear in what I said before. According to religion you will go to hell if you commit suicide or are not forgiven by the Lord for your sins, etc. What I am asking is why. Why would such a 'loving' God send some people to hell. For he is responsible for 'sending' those people there. If men were fashioned after him, they were fashioned with many flaws and would not a great, wise God know that men try their best on earth? Even with all those flaws, like greed and tempestuous emotions? It is incorrect to say that men send themselves to hell, for who acts in wicked ways to really SEND themselves to hell? It seems to me that people who say that men send
themselves to hell are in the mindset that they are the judges in men's fates, not God. Or at least feel superior enough to feel that they can judge others. Aren't men supposed to be inferior to God and his ways?
Of course, that is only my opinion. You don't have to agree with anything I say! But for once I'd like to meet somebody who agrees with me in saying that organized religion was not created by God, but by man, and so should not hold anything in life. I feel like all of those laws that Christianity, Catholicism have were created by men to keep society together. I think that is a horrid thing to do, since so many put their entire lives into religion.
"A great impression of simplicity can only be achieved by great agony of body and spirit."
--The Red Shoes |
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| REPLIED Thursday, January 03, 2002 02:53:10 PM |
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"God Bless America." I have heard that phrase more than any other. "God Bless America, another God call for the destruction of the two tallest structures in America, another God..." is what it should be. With such occurances as 9/11, how can any one, in this country at least, take religions side. Why did God allow that to happen. God did not bless America.
We were talking about ethics in school today, and one of my classmates brought up something that I had heard before, and probably all of you have heard before: Religion is the root of all wars. Religion called for 9/11. Religion called for the murder of over 600,000 Jews in WWII. I am a Jew. I am also a Catholic, on the other side of my family. Yet my whole immediate family believes that religion makes no sense. I didn't need to be told that to shun religion. I only recently adopted my own religious beliefs.
The only problem with my beliefs, that I can see, and that others whom I told about them would see, is that it is the religion that Osama Bin Ladin dreams about. A Religion that calls for the killing of innocent people. It took a lot of thinking to realize this, so I did not know it when I adopted these beleifs, but they are what I beleive.
In a nut shell, there is no God of any sort. Fate ties together an endless line of bodies that are all to be inhabited by the same soul. At the same instant that one body dies, naturally, their soul is transfered to a new life, at the instant to its creation. But, if someone dies unnaturally, murdered, in a war or massacre, the chain is broken and their soul is not reborn. They wander the Earth as ghosts, and new souls are created to inhabit the bodies of the new lifes that would have been inhabited by the wandering soul. If an large group of people die, a new generation of souls can come into being.
Brainstorm: Right this very minute I realized that my beliefs change my views on the death penalty. If the person is definately guilty, kill them so their soul cannot be reborn.
There is more to my beliefs than that, but that is the basic idea. Two peices of literature effected my beleifs: the 'His Dark Materials' trilogy, and my history book, which introduced me to early religions, from which I adopted the reincarnation section of my beliefs. 'His Dark Materials' ranks higher than 'Harry Potter' and 'Lord of the Rings' (not to start a discussion about books, I think this thread is great and should stay pure) because it was so daring to turn down all religions at once. I am tempted to abopt the afterlife story from that series to my beleifs.
I don't believe in heaven and hell, but if they do exist I see only one reason for hell: for the people who live completely immoral lives. If they have morals of any kind, depending on religion, and follow those morals, they should be admitted to heaven. Same with any other versions of heaven and hell in other Religions.
Let man's petty nations tear themselves apart.
My lands only borders lie around my heart. - "Chess"
Human brain, hahaha. Some of us don't have human brains. - 3rd Rock From the Sun
We will show them a love they can never destroy. - "Bat Boy: The Musical"
Something about the end of the world. - Sam, Lord of the Rings
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| REPLIED Thursday, January 03, 2002 03:14:39 PM |
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I have read over the other posts and observed some common threads that I think we should all examine.
There seems to be a commmon concensus that we need to believe our thing and let everyone else believe their thing, and not bother each other about it. It is wrong to impose your beliefs on others. I am going to take a risk on this issue. It is important to do such things.
Certainly we must respect other people and the way they live. We can't control them, and God certainly isn't asking us to and would hate it if we did. However, it is only natural and logical that Catholics, for instance, should try to share their faith with others. If they really believe that there is a God, that he calls us to him, that he reveals himself in the Eucharist, how can they help but share that with their fellow man? If they really believe, concretely and sincerely, that there is an Enemy, there is a Hell, how can they help but try to steer their friend away from it? Now if they only sort of say they think these things are out there or whatever, I can see how they would let everybody do their own thing, perilous as it may be. But, if they truly believe that God exists, then if they do not do their part to introduce his love to others, they are commiting a most selfish, horrible sin (and not with the bookish connation you might ascribe to sin, but real, awful wrong-doing). A person who sees a pit ahead and lets his friend fall into it without warning, is the biggest kind of jerk I can imagine.
Also, a person who has found an everlasting fountain of mirth and water and does not show his friend has done a great, selfish wrong.
Still, we all know how tiresome some of these religious pushers can be. People just seem to want to control you into to doing what they think you should.
Please forgive them, knowing this: they do it all out of love for you. Genuine love for you. They have found something so wonderful, so shining and beautiful and want to share it with you so badly, that sometimes they seem to be on the edge of making you suffocate with their rhetoric. Forgive them. The problem is this: when you love someone so much and offer them something so beautiful, and they refuse it so blindly, you want to make them accept it anyhow. You want to somehow use your words to convinvce them, but that is not usually possible. They have to make a choice. Take a risk. Decide to believe in the Heaven they've always longed for though never seen.
See, as Catholics, we can only present the door to non-believers. That is the limit of the power God has given us in this matter, and he does not ask for more of us, nor does he allow it. We can introduce the door. They have to decide whether or not to walk through it. When they decide not to walk through it, it is the saddest, gravest thing. They have chosen the lesser Jewel. but if we foolishly try to shove them through the door, things get really messed up and we go against the will of God. So I ask you again to forgive these people who hassle you, and know that believe it or not, they are acting out of sincere love.
I would now like to comment on my pet peeve (okay, an understatement). It is the only religious folly that truly makes me angry instead of just very sad. It is the easy, beneveloent stance that all religions are right. You just have to find the one that's right for you. I believe someone above summed it up above perfectly as "believe in the creator in your heart" (Not trying to attack you or anything, you just used a lot better words to phrase the idea than I could think of) This idea that everybody's faith is right is demeaning to ALL religions. They can't all be right, folks! If Christianity is right, if there is only one God, then, by definition Hinduism is wrong. If Hinduism is right, than Islam isn't. If religion is just a question of attitude, of opinion, of what's right for you, than it's all just a sack of crap! But, for better or worse, religion is a matter of fact. One of these faiths has got to be right, even if it's atheism. If you truly believe in something, you believe it's real and concrete and those who contradict it are wrong. Otherwise, you're just tossing your conviction around with meaninglessness.
In the Catholic sense, does this mean God does not communicate with people in different ways? No. Does it mean all Muslims go to hell? We certainly can't be sure of such a thing. That is their story, and I am sure God will treat them individually and with mercy. Such consequences are not for us Catholics to speculate. God will take care of it. It's in his hands.
Of course, the position that everybody is right has a lot of fringe benefits. Nobody has to argue, or be offended. We can all just live alongside each other in peace...
Peace and comfort...
Comfort...
Comfort? Our very humanity demands that we leave the Shire behind. There are more important things in life than not stepping on anybody's toes. There are more important things in life than living in comfort, free of the pesky religious debate. Just look at LOTR... People have honor to uphold, people have freedoms to defend, people are called to responsibility, people have choices to make, and these choice have consequences. Don't take the easy way out of religion by pretending it doesn't matter, or everyone is right. You're denying your greatest responsibility to yourself as a human being (and that statement really does go for "whatever you believe").
In fact, don't take the easy way out of anything. The best things in life are difficult. They often require of us pain and challenge. Lots of ignorant journalists have described Lord of the Rings as a journey that makes a man out of Frodo. They are wrong. It is a journey that makes an old man out of Frodo! Those of you who have read the trilogy will know what I mean. Don't cheat yourself by trying too hard to avoid pain, you will miss gems the suffering collect.
But I digress.
Here is my spiel:
I am a Catholic. Most people don't like Catholics. It is very irritating to hear for the hundredth time that Catholicism is about "do this and you're going to hell." The entire beauty of the religion is that it's "do this and you're not going to hell, because Christ would rather forgive you and love you than abandon you into the pit." God's forgiveness is greater than the weak power of sin will ever be. If only we will have him, he will love us with the kind of love we have only glimpsed in our most sacred dreams. In the Eucharist, he reveals Jesus Christ, his greatest gift to us, and the zenith of his mercy. There is a Heaven. There is a Hell. There is Pain, and there are many beautiful reasons to endure it. This is not just what I believe, it is the truth. It is echoed in mythology, in the artistic moment, and in God's gentle Touch. If you disagree, well, I guess the only thing I can do is say I'm very sorry for your loss. I'll pray for you.
Catholicism is the world's best kept secret.
Oh, one more thing. Somebody in a previous message said they wish there really was a heaven. Your post really touched me. (Forgive the corniness) I offer this little tidbit in hopes that it can be of some consoloation to you: C.S. Lewis once said that desires and cravings seem to only exist if they can be fulfilled. A baby can be hungry; there is such a thing as food. A man can be horny; there is such a thing as sex. Whether they are aware of it or not, all people crave heaven, and therefore, mustn't it exist as well? I certainly think so. Take a risk.
To Understand, To Make, To Heal |
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| REPLIED Thursday, January 03, 2002 03:50:02 PM |
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Just like Specter I too am Catholic, and as he has said
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I'm Catholic and have found it to be the hardest, but most rewarding and dynamic religion. Christian Fundamentalists, if they were trully fundamental, they'd go back about 500 years to the time of the separation, and realize who left whom. And if not that, then actually listen to Jesus' words when he speaks "This is My Body" and "This is My Blood" and does NOT call back those who left because they could not accept it, and this is important because it shows that He wasn't speaking symbolically. Had He been, He would have called them back.
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I respect all other religions, and I do think that we may all have different religions but I believe that we all believe in the same god. just in different names,languages etc. etc. well, that's what I think
"Courage is the mastery of Fear"
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| REPLIED Friday , January 04, 2002 03:06:55 AM |
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But for once I'd like to meet somebody who agrees with me in saying that organized religion was not created by God, but by man, and so should not hold anything in life. I feel like all of those laws that Christianity, Catholicism have were created by men to keep society together. I think that is a horrid thing to do, since so many put their entire lives into religion.
I agree fully.
Thomas Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason":
"All national institutions of churches, whether Christian, Turkish or Jewish, appear to me to be nothing more than human inventions, established to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
Harsh, yes. However I personally agree. I find organized religion too restricting, and in fact perfer to think of myself as more spiritual than religious.
Having said that, though, many many people like organized religion. It gives them boundaries and rules, which I would guess is comforting - after all, most people like to be involved with groups and other like-minded individuals. And if it works, for them, then sweet.
Deep down, I've always been a bit of a loner, I think (although I have many friends) and tend to think in rather abstract ways. Many don't like my ideas... and again, that's fine with me.
We returned to our places, these Kingdoms,
But no longer at ease here, in the old dispensation,
With an alien people clutching their gods.
I should be glad of another death.
-T.S. Eliot. |
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| REPLIED Friday , January 04, 2002 03:18:02 AM |
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[quote]A person who sees a pit ahead and lets his friend fall into it without warning, is the biggest kind of jerk I can imagine.
Also, a person who has found an everlasting fountain of mirth and water and does not show his friend has done a great, selfish wrong.
Still, we all know how tiresome some of these religious pushers can be. People just seem to want to control you into to doing what they think you should.
Please forgive them, knowing this: they do it all out of love for you. Genuine love for you. They have found something so wonderful, so shining and beautiful and want to share it with you so badly, that sometimes they seem to be on the edge of making you suffocate with their rhetoric. Forgive them. The problem is this: when you love someone so much and offer them something so beautiful, and they refuse it so blindly, you want to make them accept it anyhow. You want to somehow use your words to convinvce them, but that is not usually possible. They have to make a choice. Take a risk. Decide to believe in the Heaven they've always longed for though never seen.[quote]
Very true. Those that do not believe in Christianity are perhaps not aware of the grief they are causing to any friends or relatives that are strong believers. To them, it's akin to them watching you shoot yourself in the head - in their eyes, you are destroying yourself for eternity.
We returned to our places, these Kingdoms,
But no longer at ease here, in the old dispensation,
With an alien people clutching their gods.
I should be glad of another death.
-T.S. Eliot. |
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| REPLIED Friday , January 04, 2002 03:25:23 AM |
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I respect all other religions, and I do think that we may all have different religions but I believe that we all believe in the same god. just in different names,languages etc. etc. well, that's what I think
Well, all those religions that believe in one God (Christianity, Buddhism, Islam etc) anyway... I fully agree with you there. Different religions have grown out of different areas due to different cultures and different philosophies. I believe that it's merely a different interpretation of the same thing, also. My fundamentalist friends won't listen to that, my mate tried to explain that...
Does anyone have ideas on how I could talk to them without offending them? (Which I think I already have... ) I've nothing against them being Christian... but when it begins to affect their lives... it's gotten to the point where a couple of them think they have a holy shield that stops them from getting sick... and when they both got the flu three weeks later (one now has glangular (sp?) fever) they shrugged it off as "forgetting they weren't getting sick."
I've talked to my parents about this, and they have advised me to just watch and wait... that it's a phase that will probably pass.
I don't know... it's starting to scare me
Ideas???
We returned to our places, these Kingdoms,
But no longer at ease here, in the old dispensation,
With an alien people clutching their gods.
I should be glad of another death.
-T.S. Eliot. |
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| REPLIED Friday , January 04, 2002 01:12:08 PM |
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| REPLIED Friday , January 04, 2002 01:50:00 PM |
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| REPLIED Friday , January 04, 2002 02:19:13 PM |
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| REPLIED Friday , January 04, 2002 02:50:51 PM |
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| REPLIED Friday , January 04, 2002 03:08:40 PM |
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Pohibition comes to the shire!
